Look, it doesnt matter if you warn us or dont warn us, were not going to listen to you. Dont ever think youre indespensible. Yet as we have seen, the Quran does not claim any of these specific sites belong to the ancient tribe of Thamud per se. Then, his progeny, and his people, came to be known by the name of ` Ad. The facades vary in height and in the richness of their decorations. The title People of al-Hijr was, therefore, that of Nabateans who came much late in history and their period overlapped with Thamud-II, the remnants of Thamud-I, the subject of Quran.[5]. This is an odd conclusion. He replaced the people of the Flood with the Aad and then replaced the Aad with the Thamud. MALIK'S MUWATTA, BOOK 9: Shortening the Prayer || __ - . The expedition of Tabuk does identify the dwellings and ruins of a destroyed nation of Thamud and this area is between Madeenah and Shaam/Syria. They are related to the Banu Abs tribe.[33]. The account presented in Surah an-Naml also mentions nine evil people of Thamud who are immediately responsible for God's punishment of their people[Quran27:4851] in a narrative reminiscent of Jewish descriptions of the demise of Sodom. This is what the Sovereign LORD says about Edom 9. By about 850 BCE, a complex network of settlements and camps was established. They were able to build great structures and buildings, They had children to carry on their progeny. A temple they constructed at Rawwafa, 200 miles north of Medina, mentions the following in a Greek-Nabataean bilingual inscription: For the wellbeing of the rulers of the whole world . They used to carve in the past and their present structure is not described in this Ayah. Will you forbid us to worship what our fathers worshiped? Umar reported that the people encamped along with Allahs Messenger () in the valley of Hijr, the habitations of Thamud, and they quenched their thirst from the wells thereof and kneaded the flour with it. Certainly many of these ancient civilizations were advanced for their times and certainly more advanced than the Arabs as they had very little structures and civilization development and they were tribal societies and not big cities. [10], Arab Islamic sources state that the Thamud were an early Arab tribe that had gone extinct in ancient days. Thamud scripts and finds are noted in the area as well as possible signs of the ancient people before Thamud. They carved-out habitations on the hills and mountainscaves constructed on high places. Amend their accusation to now include the Bible also. - - * - Most scholars interpret this as an earthquake. you who live in the clefts of the rocks, Archaeologists should do their job the way they do and in case of any finding, they can confirm whether it conflicts with the Quran or not; if it does not, then there is nothing wrong to proceed with it further but if it does, then archaeology needs to be further examined however, such an occurrence would never happen since the Quran is from God. Updates? The Aad and the Thamud are two nations mentioned several times in the Quran. Badawi writes: [li] and his followers left the doomed area just before Gods punishment befell them. Possible answer: Their messenger lived before or even during the time of Isa (as), this also the time where this site flourished, but when they denied him, Allah did not destroy them immidiantely. The Thamud (Arabic: , romanized:amd) were an ancient Arabian tribe or tribal confederation[1] that occupied the northwestern Arabian peninsula between the late-eighth century BCE, when they are attested in Assyrian sources, and the fifth century CE, when they served as Roman auxiliaries. Replying by always staying what is the problem or what is the issue seems to have a rebuking or shaming tone that appears very harsh to the questioner. The ruined abandoned wells and ruined lofty palaces were present at the time of the Prophet (). . Yet how can we prove that there was a Prophet sent to them since Allah SWT does not punish a nation without sending one? Source: Sahih Muslim 2981, Grade: Sahih, . An envoy was sent to the nations to say, Objection number 2 is not a major problem once we consider the various factors involved. It describes what they used to do i.e. Thats it. [7][8] In a somewhat muddled passage, Pliny the Elder, a Roman historian of the first century CE, appears to locate the Thamd at the unidentified inland town of "Baclanaza". http://www.imgrum.org/media/1483126817820752683_724804649 BUY ISLAMIC BOOKS by The Sincere Seeker for Adults & Children on AMAZON: https://www.amazon.com/thesincereseekerFOLLOW The Sincere Seeker on social media to . The Middle verse in chapter (25) of the Noble Quran talks about Noah's people, Ad (the people of the prophet Hud) and Thamud (the people of the prophet Salih). And take for yourselves palaces and fortresses that you may abide eternally?Chapter 26, Verses 128 129. Thank you for answering my questions thanks I just have 2 more questions then Im done then ill leave it jazzakkallah They were more sophisticated than the Aad. Do not enter the dwellings of those who wronged themselves unless you are weeping, lest you be afflicted with the likes of what afflicted them. Of course there are lessons to be taken from the stories of these two nations. As menitoned earlier, the Aad were a strong, brutish, and conquering people. We do not believe in the Bible the way it is today. The leftover of Ad were taken and built over by Thamud. their country was called Arabia Petraea, the rocky; and their metropolis Petra, the rock: Jerom says that they that inhabited the southern part of the country and dwelt in caves cut out of the rock, to screen them from the heat of the sun: or, thou that dwellest in the circumferences of the rock F16; round about it, on the top of it, in a tower built there, as Kimchi and Ben Melech. God chose the prophet Salih to warn the polytheistic Thamud that they should worship the One God. They were craftsmen. Archeologists have put these ruins from the first century BCE and the first century CE. She states that all we have are A few papyri, which are mainly private contracts, and thousands of graffiti scattered on the rocks, 90% of which contain only the name of the individual who wrote it, his fathers name, and a formulaic greeting. Assalam alikum forget the rest of what Ive put down but I was just wondering does 36:41 prove that every one on the earth comes from the people of tge ark if yes then how does that work because people could still see thamud dwellings so that means they could only come thousands of years of go but we know noah had to come near them but we know humans have been here at least 40 thousand bc so how do we explain this, Assalam alikum thanks for the answers but thamud had to be destroyed no lesser than 3000 bc not 800 bc jazzakallah because thamud came before Abraham jazzakallah but thanks, Also if the quran says the area is wadi al qura then madian al saleh is not wadi al qura jazzakallah but thanks, But of course in there empire day they would of probably built in wadi al qura and al ula and madian al saleh and else where in there area because they would of had a large population any where between 20 thousand to 50 thousand people because mekkah and median together came to 20-40 thousand people in the prophets day and 40:21 says these people were more in population so they had to be more than mekkah and median, Assalam alikum also dies 7:74 mean that Thamud were the descendents of ad or not or were they they descendents of ad jazzakallah. In light of these points, in my opinion the only reasonable conclusion is one of the following: 1) That the dwellings of Thamud were destroyed some time between The Expedition of Tabuk and today. And We gave them Our signs, but from them they were turning away. Also bonus when you say there buildings were not on the surface what do you mean do you mean the outside was gone but you could see the inside like a cave do you mean that, 15. Saudi Arabia, in terms of archaeology, is really untouched. Thamd, in ancient Arabia, tribe or group of tribes known to be extant from the 8th century bce to the 5th century ce. [5], A surviving letter from Nabonidus, a sixth-century BC king of Babylon, includes an order that a "Te-mu-da-a Ar-ba-a-a", apparently "Thamudi Arab", be given several talents of silver. Thus, from the aforementioned verses we have gleaned the following: 1. It is very conceivable that those individuals who established this society became the pillars of the nation and their descendents took advantage of that and maintained a stranglehold on the wealth of the nation. According to the Quran and the Islamic exegetical tradition, the Thamud were an early Arab tribe who rejected the message of the prophet Salih. Routledge. Source: Sahih Muslim 2980, Grade: Sahih. As for objection number one, as far as my research has shown, the only reason that the carved-out structures are considered tombs is due to various rectangular carved out niches inside them where the dead bodies were to be placed. [78] Their Messengers came to them with Clear Signs. Abdullah ibn Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, reported: . They were often stronger than you in signs or athar left behind has been oft repeated. They mainly settled in the Hauran region and spread to modern Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan. (LogOut/ The Quran and quoted Hadiths indicate that the buildings of the Thamud were visible at the time of the Prophet () as signs to the Arabs. Eventually, they demanded proof for what Salih was saying. Modern historiography "unveiled the lack of inner coherence of this genealogical system and demonstrated that it finds insufficient matching evidence".[14]. 14. It may very well be that during the time of the prophet, certain structures were still apparent to them that are now hidden due to natural occurrences, such as earthquakes, accretion of sand and erosion with time. This bears enough similarity to the description of the Thamd dwellings in theQurn to induce certain authors to claim that they are the houses of the Thamd. Or there fallen down relics were better than yours in the past but not better now. Edomites, Lihyanites and Nabateans inherited this skill? But given the possibility that these ruins could have once been created, either completely or partially, by the Thamud and taken later by the Edomites in Petra and then the Nabateans, who inscribed graffiti on themtheir inscriptions are exactly thator even carved out recesses inside of them, there isnt an unsurmountable problem. 2. Here is how their argument goes: The Quran describes prophet called Salih ( ), who lived in the Thamud tribe. 4) That the ORIGINAL dwellings in the valley were Thamuds but Nabateans built them further. The prophet was a man of his times and of his own personal experiences, he could have attributed what he saw to the Thamud due to the fact that the Thamud lived on the exact region as these ruins. As I mentioned in our discussion on your post regarding Gog and Magog, I was very interested to read your reply to the missionary accusation regarding Thamud, because the argument seems to be rather recent and it seems to at least on its surface have good argumentation and hence we as Muslims must develop countermeasures. In the Nabataean period, several impressive facades were carved into the hills outside al-Hijr, between the 1st century BC and 1st century AD. What do u think? They may have even intermingled to the point of losing any distinction along ethnic lines as there is no good reason or evidence to preclude the idea that the Thamud also ventured and lived in Petra and the surrounding areas. Prophet Muhammad () descended from Ismail ( ), http://www.imgrum.org/media/1483126817820752683_724804649, http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/, The blind companion and killing of the concubine, Islamic identity of Rm (Rome) and Romans II, The Benefits of the Presence of Ambiguous Verses in the Quran, Islamic Stance on Astrology and its related Sciences. In sura 15, there seems to be a chronological order: At first the story of Adam (as) is mentioned (26-50), then the story of Abraham (as) and Lot (as) (51-77), then the story of the people of al-Rass,i.e. Its also implausible that a people who would be at the helm of such epic architectural and engineering achievements would not even make mention of it, or at least keep a record of it. They mixed with the people of Qahtan and descendants of Prophet Abraham pbuh. Witch out of these 7 does it sound more what the verses are saying or does it mean something other than these 7 Assalamualaikum the ruined abandoned wells may possible be referring to those belonging to the People of Ar-Rass (i.e. This is attested by Safaitic inscriptions (beginning in the 1st century BCE) and the many Arabic personal names in Nabataean inscriptions. Seriously? Arabization and Islamization of Syria began in the 7th century, and it took several centuries for Islam, the Arab identity, and language to spread;[19] the Arabs of the caliphate did not attempt to spread their language or religion in the early periods of the conquest, and formed an isolated aristocracy. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. During the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the Quraish would debate with him and ask him all sorts of questions. Also two Saheeh reports are contradicting each other: One the one hand, they are resting at al Hijr, while on the other hand it is said that they didnt rest at all and kept riding away faster from Hijr. Later still, we find them mentioned by Ptolemy (d. 168AD), in his Geography.6. But it was hamstrung and eventually killed by nine people of Thamud, who then attempted but failed to kill Salih himself. I believe carving out structures in hills and mountains may have been a common practice within the ancient Arabia and its surroundings based on both the Biblical and Quranic accounts. And they used to deny Our Ayat! 12. Akkadians are from Prophet Hud pbuh. The arguments against the Quran and Hadith are as follows: Al-Hijr Archaeological Site (Madin Slih) UNESCO World Heritage Centre. Think over this in detail. The Christians are claiming that the Qurans statement about Thamud carving structures in the hills and mountains is demonstrably false as the structures are built not by the Thamud but by the Nabateans, who came much later. The tribes of Arabia engaged in nomadic herding and agriculture since 6000 BCE. They are mentioned in the Quran as examples of civilizations that Allah had destroyed because of their sins and as signs of the fleeting nature of the worldly power. They just wanted to catch him in some sort of inconsistency they could use to discredit him. We must look at them, ponder over the signs of Allah and take heed. Traduzioni in contesto per "heard roaring" in inglese-italiano da Reverso Context: These are the ones we heard roaring on Friday. Its almost impossible to know for certain that the many tombs with Nabatean inscriptions are indeed constructed by them, especially when we know that only 15% of the area in Petra has been excavated and examined. where they used to live. See the video here (arabic): https://youtu.be/yjRjkjQ-VEA, Me however I lean towards that Madain Saleh is not the place for the Quranic Thamud like Dr Thiaeb (linguist of ancient arabic and archeologist) has been repeatedly saying at least since 1995, because among other reasons that Madain Saleh lacks all the marks of Gods wrath, the earth quake levelling Thamud etc. [15:80-84], , Abdullah b. The absence of evidence here is no evidence of absence. The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee However, inside most of them is only a small room about three to four square meters in size. Both groups of people were located on the Arabian Peninsula. Theres no real reason to mention them lastly, except they came after al-Rass and they are also included in this chronological order as well. . [2] The Thamud are not specially connected to the Thamudic scripts, an aggregate term for understudied writing systems of Ancient Arabia. However, that does not solve the dilemma of who carved out the hills and mountains in Petra because the Edomites existed prior to the Nabateans, who according to the Christians were the ones who carved out the mountains and hills of Petra and Madian Saleh in 1st or 2nd century B.C. It does not state, however, who made the inscriptions. Revisionists are conspiracy theorists and conspiracy theories sell so in order to make quick money and get fame, some western pseudo scholars propagate this absurd conspiracy theory. They are of Arab origin, but now of mixed blood mostly with Nilo-Saharans and Nubians. And perhaps, just like the Aad before them, they forgot the faith of Tawheed practiced by their ancestors and slipped into worhsiping idols. Also if it is in the present it makes it sound there buildings were like brand new like not destroyed etc, This is it then Im done but thank you very much for answering my questions jazzakkallah, 3. And their responses reflected their advancement in knowledge. As for now, we dont know. A report in the hadith collection of Bukhari makes this connection between Thamud and al-Hijr quite explicit. Obadiah 1:3 Moreover, they cultivated fertile land and gained lots of benefit from it. I just had the chance to look at the comments now and I dont seem to understand the problem here. Akkadians [pp. In sum, missionaries and polemicists contrive an accusation against the Quran by obscuring, deliberately or not, the meaning of Thamud in the Quran and its relationship to the complex array of archaeological sites in Arabia. As Suleyman Dost observes, The Qurns reference to rock-cut dwellings fits the picture perfectly with the exception that these carved niches do not seem to have functioned as living areas3, Returning to textual references, Diodorus, a Greek historian writing in the first century BC, mentions a group called Thamoudnoi in North-Western Arabia4. 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