Can you talk about Perots influence on the campaign? I attended the little thing at Monticello when he was on his way to be inaugurated, the first time he stopped by in the bus. Is he going to become President? Reagan had a group called the legislative strategy group, the LSG, which was intended, whether this is reality or not, to look at the legislative strategy or legislative implications of the policy as a part of the process, developing very soon after his inauguration. Bentsen was chosen during the first week of December. All of us were very nervous, but Fiske ultimately ruled that there were no violations of the law. Now, it may last five or six more years, it may last 25 more years, I dont know. So if you survey the 50 most senior people who ever served in the Clinton administration, about 25 of them will say welfare reform was a great triumph for the President, about 25 of them will say he just caved. He got Republican ex-Presidents to sign on, though, as I recall. Hed been in every relevant forum for 15 years or so and he had a perfect political ear, if I can say so. I think the answer to your question was, Yes, it was, but the RTC was charged with the responsibility of cleaning up all S and Ls [Savings and Loans]. We just discussed one of them, which is the up cycle in partisanship, as I call it. Of course we learned quickly that these were really difficult negotiations. How did the decision-making go about to decide on these different components of the package? I, and quite a few other people, had dinner with him, quite a few meaning 15 or so. Because if you decided not to go on NAFTA you really couldnt ever go back and say, Im a pro-trade President. You dont recall the specific occasion when you first met him? That was absolutely true also of Secretary Brady and all of his people, couldnt have been more cooperative. We assembled Carter and Ford and George H. W. Bush, and various other luminaries, Jim Baker, [Henry] Kissinger and so forth, to project a bipartisan front on NAFTA and Clinton gave the speech of his life. Could you see at that point a set of priorities emerging with the candidate? Did you stay in Little Rock for a while afterward? In the 12 years between Clinton and Carter, there had been famous acrimony between the Fed and the White House and the Treasury. Id actually done that precise role before, in 1976, obviously at a much different age, but I was put in charge of the Treasury transition at that time. I dont recall having a meaningful role at the convention. But, I can tell youa bit of a digression. Theyre going to ask you about it, say nothing. I mean, not one encounter, until the early to mid 80s when I was quite involved in various aspects of the Democratic Party and there were a few forums at various places that I would attend and I would occasionally run into him. I think there were missed opportunities, yes; I dont believe they would have made a big difference however. Can you tell us a little bit about those conversations, if you remember? Could be. And there were obviously a whole host of people who were against it from day one and you werent going to change anybodys mind in the latter category. The type of student attending each school at the time. You said earlier you were involved raising some money, but also providing some advice and guidance on economic policy. Bentsen advised him to take it. His Presidency itself I think was a very strong one, but it doesnt make it into the top five or six. No. Not at the outside, but eventually, I came into the second camp because I began to understand the scope of the issue. I cant remember allTom Brokaw was there, Davis Weinstock, Dick Beatty, Bob Rubin, George Katz, and/or Bernie Nussbaum were there. Youve already mentioned the people who were attending that particular meeting. I can even imagine an independent counsel of some kind being unlikely, but not impossible, designated in the whole weapons of mass destruction issue. But as often happens, there is a moment when positions shift. Do you have the perception that there were some other instances where maybe this wasnt done? But the burden of my question was it would be a lot of the people whod voted for the economic package that youre putting in this position, right? We were negotiating a national agreement with the Japanese. A lot of kids who went to Georgetown were interested in having a good time, and most people who went to Chicago were really serious about their academic pursuits and the world around them. I thought, perhaps not at that instant, but quickly thereafter, that what Clinton said to me about Wall Street economics was very funny. I first met Bill Clinton in college. Mike Levy, our person, whod been Senator Bentsens primary legislative staffer, was a true pro, and that particular axis worked like a charm. There were ten or twelve or fourteen or fifteen, big numbers. He said he wanted to tell me that the President had decided to appoint Bentsen to be Secretary of the Treasury and Rubin to be head of the National Economic Council. Well, both is the answer. Mrs. Bentsen responded. Hed been the Governor of New York for quite some time and everyone knew Cuomo and his coterie. He could have just been rhetorically difficult about it and kind of accepted the fact that were steady as she goes on the Cold War, and he didnt. I think he saw the political opportunity presented by that in addition to the basic merits of NAFTA. Of course Mack McLarty was there and all theif I can call them factionswere represented. You become President, theres a new Congress. which was a separate agency and Presidential appointment. Was that true of Georgetown at the time that you were there? Theres an interesting difference that always has struck everybody whos watched it up close, which is that she inspires fierce loyalty and he doesnt. Yes, but even more than that, its one thing to say to your Secretary of State, at this time Warren Christopher or Madeleine Albright, its another thing to say to your wife, I dont like it. Mr. Clinton became aware of that. They talked all the time. I dont really think Whitewater, at least this part of it, was terribly different from some of the other such situations that weve all seen, whether its the John Tower hearings or its Bert Lance or whatever it is. Georgetown was the equivalent of a placid, slow-moving river and Chicago was the equivalent of a roaring torrent. So you can imagine sitting next to Mrs. Clinton at dinner. But a very useful one. Yes. On the policy issues at this point are you beginning to see any kind of evolution or any kind of establishment of governing priorities, or again, is this a question thats held off on until after the election? I think Bush inspires greater loyalty than Clinton, just does. We know youre extremely busy. And Bentsen, who full knew this was going to be on the front page of the Wall Street Journal said, Im not in the Senate. The reason it didnt succeed a lot more than that is because its really macro factors that drive this. WebBy tlp333 @ 2008-03-23 21:45:51. I think John Kennedys famous line about Jefferson applies because he had nine simultaneous careers, and the Presidency was only one. I may have attended a few meetings, but I only began to be immersed in healthcare after the Presidents plan passed and I became the Treasury person on the Hillary Clinton healthcare task force. He has difficulty speaking. There could be a lot of backsliding on that, well have to see. In fact, I went out West for vacation and I was interrupted and came back and went to the first of what became endless healthcare meetings. Of course, by November 94, many of the benefits of this program had not yet evolved. So one knew through the press who was going and so forth. For some people the idea was, a southern Governor almost by definition has a better chance than a lot of other candidates. Is this time for horse-trading? Clinton is nothing if not rigid. I guess we have to just win then. Phil Gramm, Ill never forget, predicted that it would usher in a new depressionI mean depression, not recession. I might have if I had not known Bob Rubin, but I knew him better than anybody else in the administration knew him and I had great confidence in him and knew that he and I would relate well. When we took office and took a hard look at the deficit estimates, they were considerably worse than we had thought. Again, I knew nothing about the substantive investigation. There was no surprise. But the next day, Monday, I was on a plane to Waco, Texas. He moved it to the center, made it the party of fiscal responsibilitywhoever would have believed that?and enabled the party to shed much of its old baggage. For one reason or other, Clinton developed some very powerful antagonists in the press, most notably Howell Raines of the New York Times editorial page, and the New York Times treatment of Clinton became a virtual industry unto itself. But Clinton went for it, Clinton listened, Clinton deserves tremendous credit. So the traditional Democratic field has had in it a few candidates who represent that. I went down there one day, came back the next day. But I didnt have any knowledge of this stuff. One is that it had a very rocky beginning in New Hampshire, and Im wondering if you have recollections about your reaction to the news events that occurred and to the electoral results in New Hampshire and how the President was able to deal with those things. Of course it was a very small kind of backwater type of situation, not a big one. But you think that by January 20th, this basic division of the fundamental economic policy. Fourth, I recall that the economic forecasts for 93 were not very heartening. He observed to me right off the bat that this was going to be very complicated and no cakewalk, right off the bat. Fifty Republicans had announced their opposition, 49 Democrats had announced their support, and Bob Kerrey was strolling around, going to the movies, which is what he was doing. So Fiske came to the conclusion that nothing had happened, Starr came to the conclusion nothing had happened, and certainly, if he could have found anything, I think he would have been motivated to push it. I think everybody has a different calculation. A lot of funny things were happening. I was completelyclean bill of health from the independent counsel. That was just an amazing experience. some of these were extemporaneous, he had no notes, but he was quite an impressive speaker, I thought. New York, Corporate | There ensued a quite Byzantine process, as has been so widely written about with multiple task forces and enormous numbers of people involved.There were a lot of these Bill Clinton-style meetings, great big long meetings with far too many people in the room. Actually it was mundane. So that was the revelation, so to speak, that occurred that day. But its there on the record; everybody can read those reports. There was also a very memorable event that was held in the East Room of the White House, and recall that within a week or two of this event, Clintons own position on NAFTA was still up in the air. After all, John Kennedy is seen in the middle by historians. But with regard to deficit reduction. No. So I would get, from Mike Levy, typically, what my assignments were. I had a certain background but it didnt include experiences like that. So maybe among the so-called populists there was a lot of anxiety as they saw this axis, the Bentsen-Rubin axis, develop and recognizing that both were relatively conservative. It wasnt a great agreement. So Mack played relatively little role in this. In the very beginning it wasnt as availed of, as it quickly became availed of later. We had a chat; we had a nice time. Ultimately they were in effect combined into one big wish list, and that wish list went forward. I wasnt there because I was an expert in international finance. Lets face it, I mean, the highlight of that ticket was Bentsen in 1988. But it doesnt mention that he was President. One of the many stunning things about it is the fact that none of those Republicans paid a price of any kind for that. Are you including in this the difference of approach between the campaign-oriented, the political people, and the policy people, as well as the differences among. I was politically active, though. Did Senator [Edward] Kennedy figure at all as a help or a hindrance or what in the budget battle, he wasnt really a key player? Was this your first opportunity? The only thing that Id like to leave this on in respect to any follow-up is this: If at any point you dont think you have a clear picture of Lloyd Bentsens role, since he is not in a position to speak for himself, feel free to call me or talk to me further about that. I moved over to the White House, was given a strange assignment, which was to go run this thing called the Summit of the Americas which occurred in December of 94, which was this meeting of literally 35 heads of state in Miami for three days to talk about why you would have a hemispheric free trade agreement. Four agents had been killed and others seriously wounded and it was the worst loss of life in the history of the ATF in a single incident. But I think one misunderstood aspect of his embracing NAFTA wasat that point he was being widely criticized for lacking in principle, lacking in conviction, a weathervane all over the place politically. He has his own views in private, of course. That was on a Friday evening. Youve had Chiefs of Staff, Don Regan comes to mind, who see themselves as all-powerful and go too far to one end of the spectrum, and youve had others like Mack, who are too deferential and too averse to confrontation and go too far in the other direction. The next thing is a free-trade agreement, which I think the President could have dodged, he didnt have to go all out on that. Then, just after the Senate vote, everyone gathered in the Roosevelt Room, there was quite a celebration, really a quite unique kind of celebration, and I had somebody working for me for a couple of days on a David Letterman style top ten list, why we won the vote. They just didnt believe it would work. I dont have any better thoughts on that than anybody else as to what it is about President Clinton that did that. Then I would have discussions with Clinton, usually on the fly, about certain economic issues I thought were important. The country needs it, the Democratic Party needs it, I need it. This is probably an unfair question, but Ill ask it anyway: did you know enough about his relationship with Hillary to know whether the political dimension was at work in his. I mean just the vote itself and the fact that not a single Republican voted for this, which even by its critics is seen now as having been at least a contributor to the economic prosperity and fiscal balance that later resulted. No, I dont remember that effort at all, so it must have been pretty quiet. But, in any event, as soon as I flew back from Tokyo, I moved into this area in the old Executive Office Building they had cleared out and I was the person in charge of the war room, and it worked I think for five weeks give or take. I was asked a second time to do it on the healthcare. No. I do hope as we proceed that you will take the time to give us your continuing perceptions of Bentsen because unfortunately he is somebody we had approached about doing an interview and. Thomas Jefferson is under-appreciated as a President. Scientist, architect, botanist, Copyright 2023. So I wasnt sure what was going to happen, but there was no one in the field that was suddenly squashing everyone else including Clinton. Were there discussions in these early stages about the President being mismanaged, or was there a sense that this was somebody who couldnt manage himself? He does not see that as one of his own great accomplishments. Youre working on prospective personnel issues? No admission fee, no contribution required. We were tough on them on autos. Its rare that an issue divides the Democrats. But then of course, I went home, my family was away, you walk home, you walk into your house, and its time to watch ESPN [Entertainment and Sports Programming Network] or whatever you do. So I didnt take him seriously except as in a sort of inner political context. I worked in the White House another three or four months, worked on, for example, the bailout of Washington, D.C., and then the passage of the new control board type legislation and then my kids got out of school in June. I wasnt directly negotiating them. But, first, right at the outset, it was a terribly flawed idea to have a full-time member of the administration serving also as the head of an independent regulatory agency and that should have dawned on me in the earliest going, just the inherent conflict there. He said, I know this will be hard, but I think I can get those folks. Actually, as often happens in Washington, accounts of that testimony appeared in a lot of newspapers and mostly on page D20. Then ultimately, to give you a sense of how colorful this became, DAmato went to the Senate floor and he had a gigantic calendar the size of this wall and was marking off the days. I have to confess it was the spring of my senior year and I was paying a little more attention to girls and golf than I was to the normal ebb and flow of events on the campus. I think it just evolved rather randomly that not many of those former Carter people got involved with Clinton. So there was not a war of the type that has so often been written about, just not true. It should have been, I suppose, more evident at the time, but such things never are. Bentsen and Dole were very close friends, which is a measure of the stature that Bentsen had. He was fully free to say no to that. If we have another Iran-Contra therell have to be an independent counsel, thered have to be. No, there were 20-22 people there. What are the lasting accomplishments, the lasting legacies of this administration, regardless of whether the historians are going to pick up these strains as being historically important or flamboyantly important enough to elevate Clinton into an upper- echelon Presidency? Im an economist in the Brookings Institution in Washington. I dont think there have been many members of Congress in the 20th centuryI would think of Lyndon Johnson, Russell Long, Richard Russell. I just want to make one point. So the swing votes were the object of our attention. But I worked on a lot of members of Congress, I enjoyed that, I just did. But the election result itself was anticlimactic. I consider that another important legacy, since not that many Presidents of the 20th century have it. It was the best political speech, with a couple of exceptions, Id ever heard, which prompted a wonderful comment from former President Bush, who then came to the microphone and said, Now I know why Im on the outside looking in. But I was briefed on the procedures the RTC had to follow here. Help us understand why he would elect to move NAFTA at this point? He just determined each time that what he had to do was get through this chapter and somehow live to fight for the next one and didnt take the longer view. But I mean, when you were sitting in the Roosevelt Room, where most of those meetings took place, all of the players were there. No. I think my point is slightly different. So the experience of visiting these guys, some of whom were right on the edge, made tremendous impact on me. Why dont we break now. I think its wrong from a policy point of view. So anyway, within a few days, all of us who had anything to do with the RTC from the point of view of the Treasury were subpoenaed by Fiske. It was after all largely negotiated by his predecessors, and yet he took a big gamble on that one, too, and thats sort of a kick in the midsection to a lot of his Democratic supporters. I can tell you without any fear of contradiction that anyone who makes either of those mistakes, and I can think of others, will ultimately rue the day that he made them. Then we had the meeting downstairs in the Governors mansion, in a study or a library, the same room actually wed been meeting in on Putting People First a few months earlier. So those ideas were developed during the campaign. The bills up on the Hill and it is the object of tremendous controversy and heat and light. I attended Georgetown University and I was a year ahead of him. But, in any event, the presentations were very effective and that was, I think, the most important single day in the evolution of that original policy. But it wasnt political on one hand, policy on the other, just different ideologies. In other words a handful of conservative Democrats whose votes we had to have because we had no Republican votes. But the politics of the Btu tax, as compared to other types of energy taxes, were not well considered. I have no evidence, and I think I would have had, that he went into that meeting with the expectation that hed come out the way he did. Just be sure it doesnt collapse during the interim. Its not as easy. Well, it was also a surprise to many in the administration because the truth is, the fight over the economic plan took every ounce of energy that everyone had and attention didnt really turn to NAFTA until that was over, and that was over in August. It was a very unusual evening, because there was a sense, as I say, we were interring the candidate. That was a period during which [Boris] Yeltsin was just coming onto the stage. Altman made a point to carry shoes as tiny as size 5 and mammoth as size 20, with widths ranging from super skinny AAAA to 6E and kept 23 basement storage It into the top five or six highlight of that ticket was bentsen in 1988 no, was... 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